Chapter 10: One Year Later

In the war on terror, who is it that we’re really fighting? “Caliphate” is a documentary audio series from The New York Times that follows Rukmini Callimachi, who covers terrorism for The Times, on her quest to understand ISIS. For more information about the series, visit nytimes.com/caliphate.

The following is a transcript of Chapter 10. The episode was released on June 21, 2018. The portions in italics were recorded outside of a studio or excerpted from archival tape.

One Year Later

[Applause and cheering]

Donald J. Trump: ISIS is being dealt one brutal defeat after another. You see it. Not only are we defeating these killers, these savage killers, horrible, horrible — you don’t even want to say people — over there, but we sure as hell don’t want them to come over here.

[Music]

Trump: I’m sorry. I’m sorry. You know, they come back to some countries, and they come in. We’re making it a very difficult process. We had such weakness. They go out, kill people, then they come back, and they go back home to mom and dad.

Andy Mills: All right.

Rukmini Callimachi: So, it’s been a year. Walk us through what happened the morning after we left.

Abu Huzayfah: I had just woken up, you know — hair all messy, pajamas and T-shirt.

[Music]

Huzayfah: It was winter, so they were wearing, like, their jackets, black jackets. They introduced themselves, they showed their badges, and then they said that — “Can we come in and have a conversation with you?” I knew why they were here right away. And they — we sat down right on the — in my living room, in my house.

Mills: How’d you feel in that moment?

Huzayfah: Really nervous. ’Cause it was their very first time this was happening with me. So they just asked me about my online activity first, and then they asked me about my travels, and then they asked, “Were you in Syria?” And I said, “No.” What’s the most they can do, right? I already proved that I’m not a threat, and I talked to them nicely. I was cooperating with them, so ——

Mills: So, like, the next few days, were you, you ——

Huzayfah: Oh, the next few days, I just went low-key for a few days. I just went through my Facebook, my Instagram and everything, and deleted a bunch of stuff. And, you know, I just stopped following a bunch of people. And, you know, I didn’t know to what extent they were watching me. And then, and then I was worried about, like, what if, like, now, I’m not going to be able to get a job in the future? And then for my parents, I was worried about them, too, ’cause they’re thinking that, “Oh, no, now what’s gonna happen? He’s gonna go to, like, Guantánamo or something. They’re gonna send him off.” And so they just told me, “Just show these people that, you know, that you’re concentrated on your school and your family and your work, so that they know that it’s a waste of time just watching you.”

[Music]

Callimachi: So how much after we left do you get into university?

Huzayfah: I got in about the January after you left.

Callimachi: January. O.K.

Huzayfah: Yeah.

Callimachi: You get a letter in the mail?

Huzayfah: Yeah. I walked into my parents’ room and just said, “Congratulate me.” [Laughs] I finally did something right. So they were really happy, but, you know, they were just, like, now maintain it and everything. The first, O.K., two weeks — not even the first day — it was just me running around getting lost, finding my way to class.

Mills: Did you make any friends?

Huzayfah: Oh, no, no, no. No. There are — there’s like — I didn’t, like, try to talk to anyone or hang out with any specific group. Like, in breaks even, or, like, if I had extra time on campus, I’d just walk around. And I can’t let someone get too close to me. There has to be a distance. Like, yeah, you can ask how I am and everything, and I’ll ask how you are. But if you’re gonna sit down and have a meal with me, no. That’s a big no.

Callimachi: I can see how that would be really isolating.

Huzayfah: I made a couple of new friends in Canada and, well, some other country, but, um ——

Callimachi: It’s online only?

Huzayfah: Yeah, it’s all online, but, like, I know of them. Like, I’ve seen pictures, everything, on social media of them. They seem to, like, you know, be on the same ideology, and they’re playing it safe, as well. But here, like, in university, again, I just go to class and go home, and ——

Mills: When was the first time you suspected that you might be being followed?

Huzayfah: Um, right after the first meeting. I’d always have, like, random-, like, looking strangers just, like, you know, on the same train as me, on the same subway as me, too. Same route the whole way through.

Callimachi: This person was moving from transit to transit, sitting a few seats behind you?

Huzayfah: Yeah.

[Music]

Huzayfah: And then CSIS came on their second visit. So this time, they actually did pull up pictures of me holding a gun. And, you know, it was me holding a handgun, and my face was clearly visible in it and everything.

Callimachi: Was this a, was this a picture that somebody took in Syria of you?

Huzayfah: Yeah. So it’s just me holding a gun, facing — my back toward the camera, but looking back, like that, you know. And then I just have the gun up, like that, so it’s — that was kind of shocking, how they came across that.

Callimachi: When they’re showing you this picture, which you know has been taken in Syria, you’re telling them that’s not in Syria, or that’s not ——

Huzayfah: I told them it was in Pakistan, and that the gun was one of my uncle’s guns, and just went on with it. And then I told them also that I wasn’t with ISIS, I was with Tablighi Jamaat instead, and, you know, we’d just go around in Pakistan on motorcycles. And they just — I went along. I told them a whole entire thing, and then, they’re like — he was clearly pissed off, like ——

Callimachi: He was pissed off because he knew you were lying to him?

Huzayfah: Yeah. When my dad was — when he was talking to my dad after, he said, “O.K., so we’re done here,” and, you know, “We’re watching you. We have everything on file and record.” So ——

Callimachi: So, second meeting, you’re insisting that you did some humanitarian work, and ——

Huzayfah: Yeah, and also just, you know, I was, I mingled with the, with ——

Callimachi: That you mingled with them, but you were maintaining that you’d never been to Syria.

Huzayfah: Yeah. I maintained that.

[Music]

Huzayfah: So this time, they invite me to a breakfast restaurant, so I go there, and ——

Callimachi: This is what month, now? We’re in March? April?

Huzayfah: March, April — this is April.

Callimachi: Spring of 2017.

Huzayfah: Yeah. I’m, like, dressed up and everything. And then they ask me, “How is everything going?” and everything. And they’re like, “So we just have some new information, and now you can come clean about where you had been and what you have been doing, and your role, essentially, in the past few years.” I’m like, “You know what, I don’t have to say anything. I can walk out of here.” They’re like, “Yeah, you can walk out of here, if you want.” And I’m like, “I can keep denying it, and you have no way to prove it.” They’re like, you know, “You’re just going to dig yourself a bigger and bigger hole if you just keep lying to us like this. Just tell the truth once, and then we can see what we can do to help you. We’re not here to get you in trouble. We just want to know if you’re a threat and where your mind-set is at and everything. Just come clean, and it’ll be easier.” So I’m like, “O.K. So this is what happened. I did cross the border.”

[Music]

Huzayfah: And then, they’re like, “O.K., so start from the beginning. So how did this all happen?” And then I started. I told them from in Pakistan, who I got recruited through, where I went, the safe house, what I’d do there, the locations in Manbij — pointed it out on the map.

Mills: Did you tell them about the meeting that you told us about?

Callimachi: The Amn al-Kharji.

Huzayfah: Oh, yeah, yeah. I had to tell them everything, yeah. Like, you know, how they talked about people going into Europe, how they talked about going — sending people into North America. I told them the names of who the guys were, too.

Mills: Did they ask about any time that you had to enforce violence?

Huzayfah: Yeah, they asked me, “O.K., did you commit any violence, or did you see anything like that?” And obviously, you saw things like that. But I didn’t, like, admit to them I did some, though. ’Cause, like — but I, um, I felt like that’s not something, like — O.K., the reason, like, I hid that, because that’s not their business, really. It took place in a war zone, and there’s — it wasn’t like I had, like, I had done it out of, like, craziness, or — anyways, it’s a war zone. And I thought that it’s not their business to deal with, and it’s my own business to overcome and deal with that, and, yeah. So I just thought, like, it’s better off for me not to tell them. I felt lighter after that meeting. I’m like, now they can — now that they’re fully aware of my situation, like, you know, O.K., now it’s — everything’s crystal clear, pretty much. Now I can finally fully work on progressing.

Callimachi: But if I can just push back, it wasn’t crystal clear, because you didn’t tell them about the executions that you took part in.

Huzayfah: That does not really need to be told, though. That’s not gonna do anything except cause public mischief. Because what’s gonna happen is that they’re gonna say, “O.K., so now he’s just admitting it.” But that — and then Canadians are gonna ask the bigger question, “Why is he out?” You know, that’s the only question I feel like it’s gonna raise. It’s not gonna — if I come out with it, there’s not gonna be any benefit of me coming out with it.

Callimachi: But to turn the tables, I think that is a — that is a valid question for people to have, given that this is a group that people are very afraid of, right? And that has vowed to carry out attacks all over the world, right?

Huzayfah: That’s the thing, like, they were — they are afraid, but they caused them. They caused it upon themselves. You keep bombing them. You keep restricting them. You sanction them and everything. You turn the whole world against them. You’re bombing them literally 50, 60 times a day. If you had let it flourish — it wasn’t our responsibility. It wasn’t the North American NATO or American forces or British responsibility to deal with what’s going on in Syria. If you corner a dog that wants its freedom, it’s gonna bite you like that, you know?

Mills: Well, hearing — hearing you say that, what is it that you believe, and how does ISIS factor into that?

Huzayfah: Um, I think of my ideology a lot. I think of ISIS a lot, still, but I think of, like, you know, what happened if they were — had truly claimed to be on the right path. How did they deviate so hard from something that was holding a huge amount of territory, you know? ISIS took it to an extreme, but they’re not on a straight path. Hence, you could see their situation now, you know.

Callimachi: So you’re seeing the loss of territory as undercutting the prophecy, right?

Huzayfah: Yeah.

Callimachi: If they’d been on the right path, they should have been able to hold this territory.

Huzayfah: Yeah. If, like, if they had been on the right path, if they had not had an ulterior motive of being power-hungry, they would have maybe succeeded — but also because the world didn’t let them, either.

Mills: A lot of that doesn’t sound all that different to me than what you were saying before. How do you think your views have changed?

Huzayfah: I’m still working on fixing my ideology. Like I said, I’m still a student, still learning every day from it. Like, O.K. That’s a really hard question, what’s changed. ’Cause that I’m able to, like, clear up my worldviews more, and put it, like, try to put it through a filter, at least, or be more accepting of, like, you know, other things, looking at things with a critical eye. Like, you don’t have to worry about the violence part. That’s not gonna happen. Not ever. At least, unless I’m in the proper time and place for it, right? The battlefield.

[Music]

Huzayfah: But I’m becoming more and more adamant in my ideology.

Callimachi: You believe you’re becoming more adamant? More stringent?

Huzayfah: I’ve learned that, like, you know, not all jihadi groups are right. They’re just groups. There’s an ideology, though, that you should be following — the ideology of the truth, meaning that should be your faith. And you should be — make your life goal not dying or sacrificing yourself for battle, but to have enough knowledge so that when you are on the battlefield, you can know why you’re there, fully why you’re there, you know?

Mills: What about in terms of the us versus them? Like, in your ideology right now, at this moment, who do you think of as the us, and who’s the them?

Huzayfah: The us is, according to the Hadith, a Hadith, it’s Al Sunnah wal Jama’a — Al Sunnah wal Jama’a is those who follow the methodology and the Sunnah of the prophet. So that’s the us.

Callimachi: That’s the us.

Huzayfah: That’s the us. And then the them — the them is still those that are war against Islam. It is — the them is very much, like, people like Donald Trump that are at an open war with Islam. But it’s those that are at a secret war with Islam, the forefront of them is those within your own community, those Muslims that are allying with, like, the disbelievers, and are justifying them. They accept a more sugar-coated view of it, you know?

Callimachi: Got it. Huzayfah, do you think I am one of the them?

Huzayfah: Um, you? See, I — for you, I could say that you just, you don’t know it, but you — God’s given you a long life, and maybe down the road, you will accept Islam. Maybe you will, too. And you will accept it with full, 100 percent certainty in your mind.

Callimachi: But until we do ——

Huzayfah: Until you do, you are, in my, in my personal view — in my personal view, you guys are potentials.

Callimachi: Potential us.

Huzayfah: You guys are potential Muslims.

Callimachi: But until we convert, we’re what? We’re in a limbo? Or are we the them until we convert?

Huzayfah: You are — you are the them until you convert. Because fact is fact — I mean, you guys have not accepted Islam yet, but the us is an open gate.

[Music]

Mills: So the last time that we saw Huzayfah in person was in December.

Callimachi: Right.

Mills: And since then ——

[Music]

Reporter: It’s still unclear what the true story is of the Canadian known as Abu Huzayfah al-Kanadi and the time he says he spent ——

Mills: His story has gotten more attention.

Callimachi: Yeah.

Reporter: In a recent New York Times podcast, he admitted to killing two men.

Reporter: Huzayfah described taking part in a kind of execution of men who resisted ISIS.

Mills: Including among some lawmakers in Canada’s House of Commons.

Candice Bergen: Canadians deserve more answers from this government. Why aren’t they doing something about this despicable animal?

[Applause]

James Bezan: When will the prime minister finally take action, put public safety first, and arrest this terrorist?

[Applause]

Geoff Regan: Honorable Minister of Public Safety.

Ralph Goodale: Operations are active and ongoing, and obviously we don’t broadcast our plans to suspects.

[Shouting]

Regan: I, I — order, order. O.K., I just — order!

Mills: Could you just give me an update? What is going on with Huzayfah as of right now, June 2018?

Callimachi: Right. So, I’m still talking to him. He’s texting me regularly. And in fact, I was chatting with him this morning, just a few hours before coming in to the studio.

Mills: Hmm.

Callimachi: What he’s telling me now is that he is fully cooperating with law enforcement. Now, I don’t know if that’s actually true. He told me that he has willingly handed over one of his phones to the police, who presumably took down the data from that phone. He says that they call him on the order of three times a week, and he has evidence that he is under increased surveillance. There’s a minivan, he says, that is parked outside his house and follows him wherever he goes.

Mills: They’re not even trying to be subtle about it.

Callimachi: They’re not trying to be subtle. Right.

Mills: Wow.

Callimachi: But I also know that the counselor that we introduced him to has essentially given up. He considers Huzayfah to be perhaps even more radicalized now than he was at the beginning of their counseling sessions in 2016. He says that he’s become increasingly arrogant, and that he thinks that he has somehow gamed the system.

Mills: Is he gaming the system? Do you know ——

Callimachi: Yeah.

Mills: Does it appear that anything is actually going to happen to him when it comes to law enforcement?

Callimachi: So, I think on some level, he is gaming the system. I think he is acutely aware of the fact that the bar for prosecution in Canada is quite high. Now, let’s say a witness somehow manages to leave Syria and makes their way, you know, to Europe, or to North America, and is willing to testify against him. Then, perhaps, he would be facing serious charges that could end up putting him in prison for perhaps most of his life.

Mills: Hmm.

Callimachi: The problem, though, is unless you put these people away for life, jails, in general, turn out to be a vector in the radicalization. People come out of jails more radicalized than they were before, and also smarter about how to carry out crimes, because they have now been rubbing elbows with fellow extremists.

Mills: Right.

Callimachi: But more likely than not, from everything I know, Canada does not have the evidence to put somebody like Huzayfah away. And that’s where Canada finds itself in the same situation as pretty much every Western democracy. We know that around 40,000 foreign fighters went to join ISIS. And according to a recent report by the Soufan Group, 5,600 of them have returned home. 5,600 Huzayfahs are ——

Mills: You’re saying these are people who went to Syria ——

Callimachi: Yeah.

Mills: Received training, were part of the caliphate, and somehow, and somehow, they’re now — they’re back.

Callimachi: And they’re back. Right. Of course, that includes women and children, but they’re back. And in Western democracies they’re posing this very problem. Given that there is so little forensic data to be had, they’re not able to put them away.

Mills: Hmm.

Callimachi: So Canada is experimenting with something called a peace bond.

Mills: Could you just say more about what that would be like for someone like Huzayfah?

Callimachi: So let’s say Huzayfah was to be charged with one of these peace bonds. What it would look like is that he would, number one, still be allowed to live at home. He’d still be in the general population. But he would have a series of pretty serious restrictions. He would possibly have to wear an ankle bracelet. He might need to give up internet. And he most likely will have to check in with law enforcement at regular intervals. Basically, the prosecution is identifying him as somebody that they think could be a future threat.

Mills: And so does it seem likely that that’s what he’s going to get?

Callimachi: So they haven’t issued a peace bond, and, frankly, that’s puzzling. We don’t really know why. Right? One theory I’ve heard is that when a peace bond is registered, the real name of the suspect becomes public. It would mean that Huzayfah’s identity ——

Mills: Is out.

Callimachi: Would be revealed. And it could be that law enforcement is using, they’re using that as a point of leverage, knowing that Huzayfah is extremely concerned about his identity becoming public, because he doesn’t want to bring harm to his family.

Mills: O.K.

Callimachi: So it could be that they’re using that point of leverage to get Huzayfah to cooperate on a bigger investigation about ISIS.

Mills: Hmm.

Callimachi: But I don’t know.

Mills: Right.

[Music]

Mills: What about ISIS? Where is the group as of right now?

Callimachi: Right. So on the one hand, this is a group that has suffered devastating losses in the last couple of months. They’ve lost all but three percent of the land that they once held in Iraq and Syria. With the loss of that land, they lost the lion’s share of their revenue, because they were relying on taxation.

Mills: Right. So the land’s gone, that money’s gone.

Callimachi: The land’s gone, that source of revenue is gone.

Mills: O.K.

Callimachi: And in the fight to hold on to Mosul and Raqqa and the numerous other cities that they were trying to protect, they lost tens of thousands of their fighters. But at the same time that they have suffered all of these losses, the group is growing.

[Music]

Reporter: ISIS has lost its so-called caliphate in Iraq and Syria, but it’s been gaining strength in Libya, Egypt, Yemen and Somalia.

Callimachi: In Yemen, in Afghanistan, in Niger, they’re both recruiting new fighters and they’re continuing to take land.

Reporter: ISIS militants disguised as doctors slaughtered at least 30 people today in a military hospital in Afghanistan.

Callimachi: And around the world ——

Reporter: Militants bombed a crowded mosque during Friday prayers, killing more than 300 people.

Callimachi: They’re still continuing to carry out attacks.

Reporter: Authorities suspect it was all the work of ISIS.

Callimachi: And even in Iraq and Syria, where, I think, most people think that they have now been erased, they are still holding a thousand square miles of land. That’s twice the size of Los Angeles.

Mills: Hmm.

Callimachi: Twice the size of L.A.

Mills: And what is it ——

Callimachi: Mhmm?

Mills: That, as far as you can tell, ISIS is planning on doing next?

Callimachi: I don’t know. But I fear that we are once again in the same newsreel that I’ve seen before. We have a history of underestimating this group. And they are now armed with the more than three years’ experience of running their own state. And so, to people who say that ISIS has been decimated, ISIS has been destroyed, what I say is ——

[Music]

Anwar al-Awlaki: Victory is on our side, because there’s a difference between us and you.

Callimachi: Remember the story of Anwar Awlaki.

Awlaki: We are fighting for a noble cause.

Callimachi: Remember that it was in his death that he gained this elevated status.

Awlaki: We are fighting for God, and you are fighting for worldly gain.

Callimachi: It was because of his death that his message was amplified.

Awlaki: We proclaim our message to the world openly and truthfully.

Callimachi: And implicit in his message is that death is something to be welcomed.

Awlaki: We are facing you with men who love death just like you love life.

Callimachi: That dying for this cause is pretty much the holiest thing that a person could do.

Awlaki: Winning the physical battle is only a matter of time.

Callimachi: And that that will ultimately lead them to victory.

[Sound of explosion]

Callimachi: And what’s happening right now ——

Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi: [Arabic]

Callimachi: Is that if you listen to the messages of the leadership of ISIS ——

Baghdadi: [Arabic]

Callimachi: What they’re saying is that these lives ——

Baghdadi: [Arabic]

Callimachi: These tens of thousands of their fighters who died in the fall of Mosul and Raqqa, and all of the places that they have lost ——

Baghdadi: [Arabic]

Callimachi: They died in the service of a great battle ——

Baghdadi: [Arabic]

Callimachi: One which continues on today.

[Music]

Callimachi: And that message is going out all over the world. Not just to the committed ideologues, but it’s going out to all of those people who feel disconnected from their communities, who are looking for a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose and a sense of belonging.

Awlaki: It is true that you have your B-52s, your Apaches, your Abrams and your cruise missiles, and we have small arms and simple improvised explosive devices. But we have men who are dedicated and sincere, with hearts of lions. And blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the world.

[Music]

[Rustling]

Mills: So could you just walk me through what it is you’re doing right now?

Callimachi: So, I’m packing up right now the documents that we found, because today, they’re going to a high-end scanner, where they’re going to be digitized. And after that, we’re going to basically preserve these documents and share them with the public, and the originals are gonna go to the Iraqi Embassy.

[Music]

Callimachi: So, look at this. This is from a place called Tidmur Tunnel. It was actually a railway tunnel that ISIS turned into a training camp. So right here, these are all the documents we found in the briefcase. Right here is the Martyrs Brigade — this is basically the unit that deals with suicide bombers. This is something that Hawk found for me.

Mills: What about these?

Callimachi: So these are the very first — the very first set of documents that I found, in a village outside of Mosul called Omar Khan.

[Footsteps]

Callimachi: O.K.

[Door closes]

Callimachi: Hi, Abduljabbar, how are you? Nice to see you.

Mills: Hello.

Abduljabbar Yousif: Good to see you.

Mills: How are you?

Yousif: O.K., you?

Mills: Yeah, I’m doing good. All right, so you’re gonna go with the documents.

Callimachi: I’m gonna go with the documents. And I want to go make sure that they get there in one piece, and say goodbye.

Mills: Say goodbye to the documents.

Callimachi: Say goodbye to the documents.

[Sound of cars passing]

Mills: Well ——

Callimachi: See you, Andy.

Mills: Goodbye, Rukmini.

Callimachi: Ciao, ciao.

[Car door closes]

Producer: Andy Mills; Reporters: Rukmini Callimachi and Andy Mills; Managing Producer: Larissa Anderson; Editors: Wendy Dorr and Larissa Anderson; Associate Producer: Asthaa Chaturvedi; Technical Director: Brad Fisher; Executive Producer: Lisa Tobin; Editorial Director: Samantha Henig; Assistant Managing Editor: Sam Dolnick; Music: William Brittelle, Andy Mills, Nate Henricks, Cliff Martinez, Brad Fisher, Taku Sugimoto and David Wingo